Talk:E4M2: Perfect Hatred (Doom)

Hardest level of entire Doom series?
Sure it's no E1M1, and probably harder than anything else in The Ultimate Doom (although if you're going for 100% kills I'd argue E4M1 is harder), but hardest level of the series?? In terms of difficulty quite a bit of Doom II completely eclipses it (eg MAP23, MAP28) as does almost everything from Final Doom.160.39.202.171 02:16, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * It's difficult to answer such questions straightforwardly, since there are few (if any) widely recognized authorities on solo play strategy, and probably no systematic efforts to create something like a numerical difficulty index (which would be a cool thing to add to walkthrough articles!). I suppose one could make the case that, although E4M2 is indeed smaller and generally contains punier monsters than the levels you've listed, the probability of getting killed at the very beginning is higher since there is nothing to set your back against and you have to run through a lot of lava/hitscan attacks to pick up ammo.  I also seem to recall that it took quite a while longer to complete the COMPET-N table for E4M2 than for MAP23 or MAP28.  Maybe excavating some forum polls and Usenet threads would reveal a consensus for one of these positions (including yours).  Or maybe it wouldn't, in which case the most reasonable way to word the article is IMHO quite unclear.    Ryan W 21:24, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Aside from experience and discussions, a good place to determine the difficulty of levels is through the text files for demos... and then a level may be easier or harder depending on how you play it (the most basic distinction being whether you just head for the exit or wipe out all the enemies). I agree E4M1 is harder than E4M2. E4M2 is scary at the beginning, but later it's easier to handle. E4M1 is very tight and the player can suffer from ammo or health deficiencies. Some other levels in DOOM II can also be hard, such as Map22 or Map29. Map23 is about average, and Map28 is another of those levels that looks hard but becomes easier once you get a hang of it, particularly because it has many powerups (like 3 invulnerabilities in UV). In judging the hardest maps of the core games I'd concentrate first on DOOM and DOOM II... how hard Final DOOM levels are comparatively can be mentioned, but it wasn't not made by id (only published). I'd edit it to "one of the harder" and specify it refers to DOOM and DOOM II, by saing something like "id's Doom games", or "the core Doom games". Then again, it may also be wise to specify to whom it is harder or easier. Map28 might indeed be troublesome to less experienced players playing it their first times, while it may be a piece of cake to play-hardened speedrunners. Who is like God? 21:45, 16 July 2008 (UTC)